Grace And The Burden Of Salvation Options

[wheatbean]

A teacher of mine has some interesting ideas (some of which resonate to me as having something valuable, but some I have some qualms with), but I hope I convey some of them properly. What do you think of this: the idea of Grace-- that there is absolutely nothing one can do to save onesself, that life and salvation are both entirely a gift. That all are given Grace-- regardless if they are sinners or not, because all are sinners. Also, that the burden of salvation, the idea that one has to save onesself, would drive a person mad. (Of course, this seems to indicate an obsession-ego approach, rather than a relaxed consciousness-- which would have no need to be obsessed with salvation in the first place?).

These ideas seems to contradict (and somewhat coincide, in some aspects) with Gnosis-- that one can do something about one's condition. I was curious, though-- is this a matter of Grace in itself, to be able to do the work? Or is this all a gift, too? Is "our part" (the practices) in actuality a Grace, devoid of any semi-pelagian qualities?

It perturbs me that if only some, and very few, actually achieve self-realization, than what happens to all of the others, those who don't make it, those who fall, those who've never tried to change? I guess you can see my influences from the "everybody goes to heaven" train still reside somewhere within me, but it still... at least, if thats the case, I can understand a little bit why there are Bodhistattvas.

[narayan]

A teacher of mine has some interesting ideas (some of which resonate to me as having something valuable, but some I have some qualms with), but I hope I convey some of them properly. What do you think of this: the idea of Grace-- that there is absolutely nothing one can do to save onesself, that life and salvation are both entirely a gift. That all are given Grace-- regardless if they are sinners or not, because all are sinners. Also, that the burden of salvation, the idea that one has to save onesself, would drive a person mad. (Of course, this seems to indicate an obsession-ego approach, rather than a relaxed consciousness-- which would have no need to be obsessed with salvation in the first place?).

These ideas seems to contradict (and somewhat coincide, in some aspects) with Gnosis-- that one can do something about one's condition. I was curious, though-- is this a matter of Grace in itself, to be able to do the work? Or is this all a gift, too? Is "our part" (the practices) in actuality a Grace, devoid of any semi-pelagian qualities?

It perturbs me that if only some, and very few, actually achieve self-realization, than what happens to all of the others, those who don't make it, those who fall, those who've never tried to change? I guess you can see my influences from the "everybody goes to heaven" train still reside somewhere within me, but it still... at least, if thats the case, I can understand a little bit why there are Bodhistattvas.

You do your part and let God do His. If you don't know your part ask Him and He'll tell you and if you can't hear him learn how to hear. Then listen and do as He says.

with deapest love
narayan

[Chela]

The soteriological belief of many Christians that heaven is won purely by the grace of God, and that we cannot do anything to influence the outcome has, if you integrally study the Bible, nothing to do with Christianity.

Heaven is won by the grace of God because if there was not mercy and grace for us, we would already be in hell.

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matt 7:13-14

When we point out the previous passage of the Bible, every Christian believes they the “the few.” It is just a painful ruse though, to play upon one's self. The idea that everyone goes to Heaven without paying what they owe is pure fabrication!

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matt. 5:17-18

Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

"But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

"For many are invited, but few are chosen." Matt 22:1-14

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Therefore, tie a millstone to your ego and launch him into the sea. Work with the sexual energy to purify your heart!

[Paul G.]

It perturbs me that if only some, and very few, actually achieve self-realization, than what happens to all of the others, those who don't make it, those who fall, those who've never tried to change?

Read Yes, There is a Hell, Yes, There is a Devil, Yes, There is Karma, and Introduction to Gnostic Studies: Evolution, Involution and Revolution.

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

And Jesus (the Intimate Christ) called a little child (the essence) unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted (from your psychological errors), and become as little children (awakened consciousness), ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble (purify) himself as this little child (the consciousness), the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child (the essence) in my name receiveth me (through conscious works and voluntary sufferings).

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me (if your ego steals the consciousness and traps it in desire), it were better for him (the ego) that a millstone (of sex) were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea (of chastity).

14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So yes, pray to God, but strike hard (against thy ego) with thy rod (spinal column: willpower).

[wheatbean]

Thank you all for your replies.

Chela, I just have a specific question about your post (think-think-think, thought-thought-thought!). My intention is not to argue (or suggest) that we should just all "do whatever" because our fate is ultimately in God's hands, but merely to question the compadability between the idea that we can never pay what we owe (thereby in desperate need of Mercy), and having to pay what we owe (karma). Its hard for me to see the connection between the law being Merciful, and simultaneously requiring payment, which we could never do completely (?) because of our need of Mercy.

Perhaps it is a matter of differentiation between the Egos and the Budhata-- as the Ego's fate is sealed, and cannot save itself (which is so much of "who we think we are"), whereas the Buddhata is of God.

Please pardon my ignorance! Thank you for your time and patience.

[Chela]

Everyone will pay what they owe, but some will pay it slowly, some will pay it quickly, some will pay it conciousnessly and others will pay it mechanically.

These are differences between a Nirvani (Spiral Path), a Bodhisattava (Straight Path), and those who go to Hell (mechanically). Here is a good audio lecture: The Four Pathways to Liberation.

The real comprehension of Karma is something beyond the intellect. Sometimes we see a lot of questions about "scenario a" and "scenario b", "scenario z"... "What if this happens? What if that happens? What if this then that happens? What will be the karma then? Will I go to hell? Can I be saved? Am I on my last life?" etc. etc. This is more or less a fruitless waste of time that the intellect stresses over, because karma is a conscious law that takes into account all the parameters of all the causes and effects of everything.

As we say in these parts: Meditate on it! :happy:

[James Crow]

If the Law required that you pay all of your karmic debts right now, you would not be here. The mercy is that you are being given a chance to pay by your own will. This is the Law under the guidance of the Christ: he comes with a sword to fulfill the Law, but fights to save the soul in each of us. He must fulfill the law and see that all debts are paid, but He works on our behalf to give us as many chances as possible.

To really accomplish the work is only possible because of the intervention of the Christ. If not for his sacrifice, it would all have ended for us long ago! The only reason any of us are still here is due to His love and sacrifice. This is all the more astonishing when you consider that in light of what we tend to do with our time and energy.

However, He cannot save us if we do not begin to pay our debts consciously, by performing the Three Factors in ourselves from moment to moment. If we ignore the nature of the path and continue in our idiotic behaviors, then He has no choice but to give us what we deserve: his compassion in the form of the abyss. Even hell exists because Christ allows it. Without hell, then there would be no chance for all the failed souls to try again in a future age.

[wheatbean]

Thank you both.



I find myself often wavering-- one day saying "Yes, I will do this. I will do practices everyday; I'll observe myself every moment." And a month or so later, long forgotten is this "leap," and I stop meditating regularly ("I'm too tired" "I'll do it in the morning"), and think: "this contradicts so and so, this is silly..." and contemplate abandoning it all together. I wish this weren't so, and it'd take effort to change this negative pattern-- and if this is hard for me, how difficult are the challenges that lie ahead? Thank you again-- coming here is very encouraging-- now to only impliment at least an iota of willpower.

[Ralph]

Outside of Gnosis (which I think you're still pretty skeptical about) there's a pretty good rundown of the different ideas (throughout history) about the nature of grace in McGrath's Christian Theology: An Introduction.

The idea of a "doctrine of grace" permeates (obsesses) the Western church because of an early polemic controversy between Pelagius and Augustine of Hippo. Ultimately, this led to Protestant ideas about grace that are sometimes called "Hyper-Calvinism". The eastern church has never really obsessed over this.

In a nutshell, Pelagius is said to have thought that God had given humanity all that we need to save ourselves. All of the "Law" is doable, and all we have to do is follow the Law. We can choose on our own to be sinless.

Grace is God's gift to us. It's a gift that we don't deserve. We can't save ourselves, for we can't buy grace. Once we have received a measure of that gift, we have work to do (as outlined by Samael Aun Weor). Continued grace ("cooperative grace") doesn't come cheaply, and as it comes there is more and more that we have to do with it. With grace, we are transformed as the egos die and our free will can be heard again. Grace remains a gift, never a reward.

The idea that all we have to do is stand around, God's grace will be poured on us, and that's all we have to do, is a heresy. I think we may well get a dab of "cheap grace" without asking, but after that we beg, plead, implore.

The idea that the Virgin Mary is a reservoir of grace needs to be meditated on in the context of the teachings at this website. Also, meditate on whether "grace" has a place (a sphere) in the kabbalah (don't anyone answer this for her).

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all.

[kazz]

Hello, I am back

"I believe that man's natural virtue - whatever its degree - cannot save a man and bring him to eternal life. The Scriptures teach: "All our righteousness is like unto a menstrual rag" (Isaiah 64:6). The fulfillment of the works of the Law does not permit us to demand or to merit something from God. Not only do we have no merits or supererogatory works, but Jesus Christ enjoins us that when we have fulfilled all the works of the Law, we should esteem ourselves as nothing but "unprofitable servants" (Luke 17:10). Without Jesus Christ, a man's personal virtue, his repute, his personal value, his work, his talents and his faculties matter but little. They matter only insofar as they test his devotion and faith in God. Our faith in Jesus Christ is not an abstraction but rather a communion with Him. This communion fills us with the power of the Holy Spirit and our faith becomes a fertile reality which engenders good works in us as the Scriptures attest "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Thus, according to the Apostles, faith engenders true works; and true works, which are the fruit of the Holy Spirit, bear witness and prove the existence of a true faith. Since faith is neither abstract nor sterile, it is impossible to dissociate it from good works. It was by this same faith in the same Jesus Christ that the righteous of the Old Testament (who are venerated to the same degree as the other saints in the Orthodox Church) were saved, and not because of their legalistic or disciplinary observance of the Law. Faith is also a gift of God, and a man relying on his own efforts, his own piety, or his own spirituality, cannot of himself possess this faith. Yet faith is not imposed: to those who desire it, God grants it, not because of a fatalistic predestination, but because of His Divine foreknowledge and His disposition to co-operate with man's free will. If God has given us faith, we must not think ourselves better than others, nor superior or more worthy than them, nor should we think that we have received it because of our own merits, but we should attribute this favor to the goodness of God Whose reasons escape us. We must thank Him by bowing down before the mystery of this privilege and be conscious that one of the attributes of faith is the "lack of curiosity." It is neither works nor faith, but only the Living God Who saves us."

"I believe that man "works" for his salvation. Salvation is not imposed upon him in spite of himself as Augustine of Hippo's and John Calvin's doctrine of predestination would have it, nor is it obtained solely by the endeavors of human will, as Pelagius taught. Salvation is synergetic; that is, man co-operates in the work of his salvation. God does not take upon Himself the role that belongs to man; likewise, man can attain nothing by his own efforts alone, neither by his virtue, nor by observing the commandments, nor by a good disposition. None of these things have any value for salvation except in the context of Divine Grace, for salvation cannot be purchased. Man's labors and the keeping of the commandments only demonstrate his will and resolve to be with God, his desire and love for God. Man cannot accomplish his part of co-operation in his salvation by his own power, however small this part may be, and he must entreat God to grant him the strength and grace necessary to accomplish it. If he perceives that he does not even wish his own salvation, he must ask to receive this desire from God "Who gives to all men and disregards none." For this reason, without despising man's role, we say that we receive "grace for grace" (John 1:16) and that to approach and enter the Church is according to the Fathers, "the grace given before grace," since in reality all is grace. This is the true meaning of the words of the Holy Fathers, "although it be a question of grace, yet grace is granted only to those who are worthy of it" indicating by the word "worthy" the exercise of our freedom of will to ask all things from God."

From "A Short Exposition of Orthodox Doctrine"
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/i_believe.aspx

[narayan]

Hello, I am back

"I believe that man's natural virtue - whatever its degree - cannot save a man and bring him to eternal life. The Scriptures teach: "All our righteousness is like unto a menstrual rag" (Isaiah 64:6). The fulfillment of the works of the Law does not permit us to demand or to merit something from God. Not only do we have no merits or supererogatory works, but Jesus Christ enjoins us that when we have fulfilled all the works of the Law, we should esteem ourselves as nothing but "unprofitable servants" (Luke 17:10). Without Jesus Christ, a man's personal virtue, his repute, his personal value, his work, his talents and his faculties matter but little. They matter only insofar as they test his devotion and faith in God. Our faith in Jesus Christ is not an abstraction but rather a communion with Him. This communion fills us with the power of the Holy Spirit and our faith becomes a fertile reality which engenders good works in us as the Scriptures attest "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Thus, according to the Apostles, faith engenders true works; and true works, which are the fruit of the Holy Spirit, bear witness and prove the existence of a true faith. Since faith is neither abstract nor sterile, it is impossible to dissociate it from good works. It was by this same faith in the same Jesus Christ that the righteous of the Old Testament (who are venerated to the same degree as the other saints in the Orthodox Church) were saved, and not because of their legalistic or disciplinary observance of the Law. Faith is also a gift of God, and a man relying on his own efforts, his own piety, or his own spirituality, cannot of himself possess this faith. Yet faith is not imposed: to those who desire it, God grants it, not because of a fatalistic predestination, but because of His Divine foreknowledge and His disposition to co-operate with man's free will. If God has given us faith, we must not think ourselves better than others, nor superior or more worthy than them, nor should we think that we have received it because of our own merits, but we should attribute this favor to the goodness of God Whose reasons escape us. We must thank Him by bowing down before the mystery of this privilege and be conscious that one of the attributes of faith is the "lack of curiosity." It is neither works nor faith, but only the Living God Who saves us."

"I believe that man "works" for his salvation. Salvation is not imposed upon him in spite of himself as Augustine of Hippo's and John Calvin's doctrine of predestination would have it, nor is it obtained solely by the endeavors of human will, as Pelagius taught. Salvation is synergetic; that is, man co-operates in the work of his salvation. God does not take upon Himself the role that belongs to man; likewise, man can attain nothing by his own efforts alone, neither by his virtue, nor by observing the commandments, nor by a good disposition. None of these things have any value for salvation except in the context of Divine Grace, for salvation cannot be purchased. Man's labors and the keeping of the commandments only demonstrate his will and resolve to be with God, his desire and love for God. Man cannot accomplish his part of co-operation in his salvation by his own power, however small this part may be, and he must entreat God to grant him the strength and grace necessary to accomplish it. If he perceives that he does not even wish his own salvation, he must ask to receive this desire from God "Who gives to all men and disregards none." For this reason, without despising man's role, we say that we receive "grace for grace" (John 1:16) and that to approach and enter the Church is according to the Fathers, "the grace given before grace," since in reality all is grace. This is the true meaning of the words of the Holy Fathers, "although it be a question of grace, yet grace is granted only to those who are worthy of it" indicating by the word "worthy" the exercise of our freedom of will to ask all things from God."

From "A Short Exposition of Orthodox Doctrine"
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/i_believe.aspx

Wellcome back kAZZ, I guess we are like butterflies, can't stay away from the fire even if it burns us! I hope you stay this time and benefit from whatever you feel that the gnostic brother do to you on this forum. For whatever happens to us is our own doing and we need to understand all the egos that are manifest in that drama!

with deapest love narayan

[student]

Hello, I am back

"I believe that man's natural virtue - whatever its degree - cannot save a man and bring him to eternal life. The Scriptures teach: "All our righteousness is like unto a menstrual rag" (Isaiah 64:6). The fulfillment of the works of the Law does not permit us to demand or to merit something from God. Not only do we have no merits or supererogatory works, but Jesus Christ enjoins us that when we have fulfilled all the works of the Law, we should esteem ourselves as nothing but "unprofitable servants" (Luke 17:10). Without Jesus Christ, a man's personal virtue, his repute, his personal value, his work, his talents and his faculties matter but little. They matter only insofar as they test his devotion and faith in God. Our faith in Jesus Christ is not an abstraction but rather a communion with Him. This communion fills us with the power of the Holy Spirit and our faith becomes a fertile reality which engenders good works in us as the Scriptures attest "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). Thus, according to the Apostles, faith engenders true works; and true works, which are the fruit of the Holy Spirit, bear witness and prove the existence of a true faith. Since faith is neither abstract nor sterile, it is impossible to dissociate it from good works. It was by this same faith in the same Jesus Christ that the righteous of the Old Testament (who are venerated to the same degree as the other saints in the Orthodox Church) were saved, and not because of their legalistic or disciplinary observance of the Law. Faith is also a gift of God, and a man relying on his own efforts, his own piety, or his own spirituality, cannot of himself possess this faith. Yet faith is not imposed: to those who desire it, God grants it, not because of a fatalistic predestination, but because of His Divine foreknowledge and His disposition to co-operate with man's free will. If God has given us faith, we must not think ourselves better than others, nor superior or more worthy than them, nor should we think that we have received it because of our own merits, but we should attribute this favor to the goodness of God Whose reasons escape us. We must thank Him by bowing down before the mystery of this privilege and be conscious that one of the attributes of faith is the "lack of curiosity." It is neither works nor faith, but only the Living God Who saves us."

"I believe that man "works" for his salvation. Salvation is not imposed upon him in spite of himself as Augustine of Hippo's and John Calvin's doctrine of predestination would have it, nor is it obtained solely by the endeavors of human will, as Pelagius taught. Salvation is synergetic; that is, man co-operates in the work of his salvation. God does not take upon Himself the role that belongs to man; likewise, man can attain nothing by his own efforts alone, neither by his virtue, nor by observing the commandments, nor by a good disposition. None of these things have any value for salvation except in the context of Divine Grace, for salvation cannot be purchased. Man's labors and the keeping of the commandments only demonstrate his will and resolve to be with God, his desire and love for God. Man cannot accomplish his part of co-operation in his salvation by his own power, however small this part may be, and he must entreat God to grant him the strength and grace necessary to accomplish it. If he perceives that he does not even wish his own salvation, he must ask to receive this desire from God "Who gives to all men and disregards none." For this reason, without despising man's role, we say that we receive "grace for grace" (John 1:16) and that to approach and enter the Church is according to the Fathers, "the grace given before grace," since in reality all is grace. This is the true meaning of the words of the Holy Fathers, "although it be a question of grace, yet grace is granted only to those who are worthy of it" indicating by the word "worthy" the exercise of our freedom of will to ask all things from God."

From "A Short Exposition of Orthodox Doctrine"
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/i_believe.aspx

Matt.23: 15: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Faith is a characteristic of the Christic Solar Mind and not of the Pharisee Mind! :bangin:

We must distinguish between faith and belief. Religious beliefs, unbreakable dogmas, etc., are found stored in the Pharisee Mind.

Unfortunately, Pharisee Mind has always the tendency to confuse belief with faith.

“Those who have true faith do not need to believe.”

This is because genuine faith is living knowledge, exact cognition, and direct experience of that which is the reality.

For many centuries Pharisee Mind have confused faith and belief. Now it is very difficult to make them understand that faith is true knowledge and never futile beliefs.

Pharisees have no direct knowledge about the nature of the essence of the Salvator Salvandus; they confine themselves to belief and that is all. :ban:

http://www.gnosticteachings.org/index.php?...d=225&Itemid=65 :rtfm:

[kazz]

Student,

It's talking about faith, not beliefs. I know how you feel suspicious specifically Orthodox and other Christian churches (in one of your posts you said they are of Jahve I think). Orthodoxy has kept a lot of things from the original apostolic church (that's built into the nature of Orthodoxy, differently from Catholics or Protestants which changed things more with time). So please if you could read what it says and try not to dismiss it right away as just bunch of beliefs, not faith only because you are suspicious of the source. Even though you are suspicious, Orthodoxy is a vast and valuable source of knowledge and faith, and don't forget, a precious pearl on thread of Divinity. BTW, read into Church Fathers in regards to experiences. I would not readily dismiss them as of "pharisee's mind".

Narayan,

Thanks for your kind words

[mercurian02]

Unfortunately, Pharisee Mind has always the tendency to confuse belief with faith.

“Those who have true faith do not need to believe.”

This is because genuine faith is living knowledge, exact cognition, and direct experience of that which is the reality.

Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus Appears to Thomas
Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Peace Student,
We have the tendency to seek proof in order to believe, but the only that knows consciousness which right now is trapped in the ego. So it is difficult to perceive the reality. To me Faith is experimentation of the truth. The Apostle Thomas taught this when he could not believe that Master Jesus had resurrected, Jesus made Thomas touched him. Thomas is cognition, comprehension and infinitive patience.

P.S Welcome back Kazz. :hi:

[student]

Student,

It's talking about faith, not beliefs. I know how you feel suspicious specifically Orthodox and other Christian churches (in one of your posts you said they are of Jahve I think). Orthodoxy has kept a lot of things from the original apostolic church (that's built into the nature of Orthodoxy, differently from Catholics or Protestants which changed things more with time). So please if you could read what it says and try not to dismiss it right away as just bunch of beliefs, not faith only because you are suspicious of the source. Even though you are suspicious, Orthodoxy is a vast and valuable source of knowledge and faith, and don't forget, a precious pearl on thread of Divinity. BTW, read into Church Fathers in regards to experiences. I would not readily dismiss them as of "pharisee's mind".

Narayan,

Thanks for your kind words

Maybe if you very carefully study what the OBJECTIVE REASONING of THOMAS in the right area of the brain is, then you will understand what I mean! :doh:

John 20:
24: Now Thomas, one of the twelve (Powers of the Parasympathetic Nervous System), called the Twin (because is located in that part of the brain that deals with the false images of the Subconscious Mind (Mythomania) and the messages that come from above (through the Pineal Gland) from the Innermost (Monad). Therefore, Thomas in the right temporal lobe of the brain exclusively favours the messages of the Innermost (through the Pineal Gland and through the Nous Atom (Superior Mind) in order to be sure that is capturing the ultimate truthful meaning of the word from our Innermost God.), was not with them when Jesus (the Nous Atom) came.

25: So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe (because Thomas knows very well the tricks of the subconscious mind)."

26: Eight days later (in Binah (understanding), day of resurrection), his disciples were again in the house (Grand Sympathetic Nervous System), and Thomas was with them. The doors (of the physical senses that nourish the mind) were shut, but Jesus (the Nous Atom) came and stood among them (in the Sushumna Canal), and said, "Peace be with you."

27: Then he said to Thomas (in the right temporal lobe of the brain), "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but faithful (Thomas in the right temporal lobe of the brain does not accept any thing that does not come directly from the Nous Atom)."

28: Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

29: Jesus (the Nous Atom) said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen (the Nous Atom) and yet believe (in this Christic doctrine)."

30: Now Jesus (the Nous Atom) did many other signs in the presence of the disciples (the internal glands), which are not written in this book;

31: but these are written that you may believe that Jesus (the Nous Atom) is the Christ, (the messenger of) the Son of God (the atom of Chokmah in the Pituitary gland), and that believing (in this Christic doctrine) you may have life in his name (by practicing his realization).

http://www.gnosticteachings.org/index.php?...d=235&Itemid=63 :bigemo_harabe_net-11:


Oh, I almost forgot, the precious pearls on the thread of Divinity, are the truths of all religions; truths that can only be verified by our PEARL (the consciousness)! :bangin:

Matt.13: 45,46, 51: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?

Faith (PETER) is within your Pearl and Belief is within your Objective Reasoning (THOMAS)!

May YOUR PETER and THOMAS be welcome in this forum! :notworthy:

[Mitras]

Student with respect,
Treat people the same way as you want to be treated. (:bangin: :ban: )

[student]

Student with respect,
Treat people the same way as you want to be treated. (:bangin: :ban: )

With respect to your Being and the Being of Kazz!

"Believe," to "hold dear, love, to like, to cherish" Spelling beleeve was common in the past; then altered perhaps by influence of relieve. Common People use "believer as attested to believe on but now in Gnosticism, believer is attested as believe in.

The distinction of the final consonant from that of believe developed as Belief used to mean "trust in God, faith in God” and not “on God”

Faith in common usage contains no conscious notion of divinity. But Faith, as a cognate, taken in the Gnostic sense, becomes not limited to merely mental acceptance of something as true, for the common religious use in the sense of "things held to be true as a matter of religious doctrine." :bangin:

[Paul G.]

I wish this weren't so, and it'd take effort to change this negative pattern-- and if this is hard for me, how difficult are the challenges that lie ahead?

13. Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the (lunar) way that leads to (the) destruction (of the Second Death), and there are many (failures) who go in by it.

14. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way (of the Path of the Razor's Edge) which leads to (everlasting) life, and there are few who find it (there are few who reach the end).
-Matthew 7:13-14



Father, if it is possible, please remove this cup of bitterness from me. But not my will, but Thine be done.

[Gunther Stein]

Student with respect,
Treat people the same way as you want to be treated. (:bangin: :ban: )

Student should be a Teacher and many teachers here should become more like student.

Often times, the words of a student are treats for the tricksters.

Sometimes the minds think that treats are tricks. Others believe that tricks are treats.

Others, abstain from "trick or treating" because they lack a costume to wear on Halloween.

Obviously, you have more than one costume that you "trick or treat" with while knocking on the doors of various threads.

Some smart individuals treat others the way they want to be tricked, while others are being tricked by the treatises of teachings.

If you are looking for a treaty, remember trickery will only lead you to treachery.

Just be sure to avoid the tickery of ticks, because ticks are icky.

Tickery only leads to tockery, which are the ticks and tocks of the pendulum of clockery.

To treat others to trickery or treachery, is not the same as treating others to treats, treaties and treatises.

Remember that, okay. :g:

[Shumallu]

Hello, I am back

Hello Kazz. Apologies for the delayed response...

"I believe that man's natural virtue - whatever its degree - cannot save a man and bring him to eternal life. The Scriptures teach: "All our righteousness is like unto a menstrual rag" (Isaiah 64:6)....."

Here is a another concept worth considering. It is not the virtue of man that the Gnostic student seeks to achieve, but the Virtue of the Being and the Virtue of the Christ. Am I one with the Being, with God, or simply an immitation of Virtue that filters, inverts, or completely antagonizes the Virtue of the Being?